Steve, you really have had a bad experience with this from beginning to end!

Doug L.

I wish my experience would have gone as well.  After no response to my email for four days I sent them an email stating I hadn't gotten a response.  After another three days I finally received a reply stating they hadn't gotten my first email.  I find this odd because they sent a message stating that they had received it and would respond ASAP.  They probably just didn't look BACK far enough.  Then called and was put on hold for over twenty minutes.  Gave up!

 SteveD

That's great.  I believe Todd Miller (ADO16) had similar experiences when he needed their tech support.  I'm glad you got the new part and that it has fixed the problem.

Doug L.

Doug, and all,

Received the replacement part today from Pertronix.  Turns out it was actually the black sleeve which holds the magnets.  They all appear to be in position at the 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock positions.  But, they rattle when you shake it.  I replaced it and the car is running perfectly again.  Pertronix took pretty good care of me.  Anyone having to deal with them, I encourage you to be persistant and talk to someone on the phone though.  I tried using the e-mail customer service.  Took three days to get a response.  When I finally did, I was told to return the part to them, they would test it, and send a new one after testing.  Because I got tired of waiting for a return e-mail, I went ahead and called their Tech Support for assistance.  I explained what was happening.  All I had to provide was an invoice indicating purchase.  I faxed a copy of the invoice to them.  The part went out in the mail the next day.  Highly encourage using the phone.  Simple fix.

Jeff

Please post back and tell us how Pertronix treats you.  Since your unit is so new and you can tell them how you moved the sleeve and the problem moved... they should accept that there is a problem with the sleeve and make this good.

Doug L.

Hi Doug.  Once again, thank you very much for all of the info.  I did not mark it first, but I did remove the magnet sleeve and re-install.  I am now firing on cylinders 2 and 4.  The gap does appear to be decent.  I tried the test lamp between coil (-) and ground.  I only see two pulses of light as I crank the engine over.  I may go ahead and call Pertronix and see if they will send me a new sleeve without any headache.  The distributor is one of the only things I have not replaced (on the car) so I may go ahead and do that too.  I would certainly like to try the new magnet sleeve first just to see if it fixes the problem.

Thanks again,

Jeff

There are some issues with various tachs and electronic ignitions in general.  Let me give you a succinct summary of the concerns just to set your mind at ease.

Smiths RVI tachs (common through the early 1970s) are current pulse sensing.  The RVI tachs have an external (or internal... depending on vintage) loop of wire that carries current to the coil.  These tachs tyipically don't work with electronic ignitions.  Various explanations can be found for the problem.   I think it has to do with the length of the dwell.  Regardless, if the wires are attached and intact, these tachs cause no problem when installed... it's just that they often don't work.  Cup Cake on this board is an exception to this general rule.  He's had an RVI tach that DID work with electronic ignition.

The later Smiths tachs were designated RVI.  These are more like modern tachs (including probably the K-Mart one you mentioned earlier) and are voltage pulse sensing.  They use a single sense wire connection to coil (-).  These tachs generally work fine with electronic ignitions and points.  The only problems I'm aware of are that some MSD systems and other high-end ignition systems may want you to connect the tach to a special connection point instead of coil (-).  

IF there is a problem INSIDE a voltage pulse sensing tach, you MAY find that the car won't run.  The reason is that sometimes when problems occur in these tachs a short between the sense wire to chassis ground can develop.  If this happens, the coil (-) terminal is held at ground potential all the time.  This is like your points never open, it's a kill switch.  This doesn't always happen when tachometers fail.  However, if you have a voltage sensing tach and the car won't start, it's a good idea to disconnect it from the coil to insure it's not the source of the problem.

Steve, once you've got your engine running again, reconnect the tach.  If you're able to start the engine with the tach attached, the tach is fine and you can leave it connected.

 

Doug L.

Mention was made of tach in a couple of messages---should I NOT connect a tach with the pertronix?

 

SteveD 

Jeff, there are two things I would suggest before you give up completely on the Ignitor.  After all, you already own it.

First, if it's firing on one and two but not three and four, the problem isn't likely to be in the Ignitor unit itself.  The Ignitor is just a switch triggered by magnets.  If the switch is working for two cylinders but not the other two... it's got to be a problem with the trigger magnets or... something after the coil.  Check the gap to the magnet sleeve and make sure it looks reasonably close, perhaps 0.020 to 0.030 to the pickup (or whatever was suggested in the links I posted above).  See if this improves or corrects the problem.  If it doesn't, put a paint mark on the magnet sleeve, remove it, turn it 180 degrees and put it back on.  Now repeat your spark plug check.  If the problem moves to plugs 1 & 2 you know the issue is with the magnet sleeve.  If this proves to be true I'm sure a quick phone call to Pertronix would get you a replacement sleeve for free.

If after repositioning the magnet sleeve the weak sparks remain on 3 & 4, the problem isn't likely to be with the Ignitor at all.  Take the coil high-tension lead and disconnect it from the dizzy cap.  Attach a spark plug to this lead and rest the plug on the cylinder head or other good earthing point.  Crank the engine over and watch the spark now.  If it remains weak for any of the four pulses per rotor rotation, this would point towards Ignitor problems.  If the spark is strong for each of the four pulses, the weak spark problem is being caused by either the cap, rotor, plug wires, or plugs... or some combination of these. 

Earlier we mentioned putting a test lamp between coil (-) and and earthing point while the engine is cranked.  If the lamp goes full on and then full off as the rotor turns, this indicates that the Ignitor module is switching well.  If it flickers dimly like Steve reported, there probably is a problem with the Ignitor module.  However, remember that Steve had Ignitor-II which is very different than your Ignitor.

Doug L.

dklawson,

Thanks.  The car ran fine all day yesterday.  I say all day...I drove it about 20 miles, or so.  Pulled it out this afternoon to drive it to work and it sputtered from start up.  Thought it was just because it wasn't warmed up initially.  Then it never got better.  Something just magically went wrong overnight while she slept in the garage.  The plugs all look fine.  The way I found that 3 and 4 aren't firing is simply by pulling the plug wires from the plugs while the car was running.  No change when I pull 3 and 4.  Dies when I pull 1 and 2.  Checked for spark on 3 and 4 using a screwdriver.  Extremely little to no spark on 4.  Just enough on 3 to give me a surprise (shock) but extremely weak.  I would guess the sleeve has the proper number of magnets since everything has been fine.  I think I am just going to get the yellow aldan distributor and (hopefully) be done with it.  Sure was looking forward to taking the Mini out and showing it this evening.  A couple of diners out here that all of the cars come out to on Friday evenings.  Maybe next Friday.  Thank you very much for the info. 

Jeff

As with all things manufactured, some units may be dogs or have problems. 

Jhayes11, are you sure cylinders 3 & 4 are not firing or are you basing this on the way the plugs look?  LU143 should be an "original" Ignitor unit, not Ignitor-II.  There are a few reports of Ignitor units where the magnet sleeve that goes on the dizzy shaft have lost (or been made without) the proper number of magnets.  You should be able to check this by putting a test light between coil (-) and chassis ground and cranking the engine with the ignition on.  If you do not see four flashes of light from the test lamp as the rotor makes one complete revolution this would indicate something is wrong with the magnet sleeve or perhaps the gap between the pickup and the magnet sleeve.  I have heard of one or two units (I thought for the 45 series dizzy) where Pertronix specifies that you need to check the gap between the pickup and the magnets.  Sorry... I don't remember what that gap was supposed to be.  There are also reports of the sleeve being too tight to fit on the dizzy shaft.  If the magnet sleeve isn't properly positioned or if it cracks you can get misfires from an otherwise functional pickup.

I found the following links that discuss some of the magnet problems.  Some mention the magnet gap, some mention there is a gap checking/setting plastic strip in the kits.  I don't remember ever seeing that strip.  It seems that in general if you get a good unit from Pertronix it installs and runs for years without issue.  If you get a bad one, there seem to be nothing but problems.

http://www.vintageperformance.com/retrorockets/field_test.htm
http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=216413
http://classicbroncos.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-73838.html

The link below is interesting... not troubleshooting but information on moving the pickup to tweak the dwell on Pertronix.
http://www.ratwell.com/technical/PertronixAdjust.html

Doug L.

When I was at the stage of putting my engine back together, I replaced the points in my distributor with th Pertronix Ignitor, item # LU143, from MiniMania.  I have finally gotten my Mini back on the road.  I have less than 30 miles on it and cylinders 3 and 4 are now not firing.  Plugs check out fine.  Unless someone else has another suggestion, I'm saying this Pertronix ignition stuff is junk!!

If you look on the side of the dizzy you'll find a five digit number that you can look up in Marcel's distributor database.  Then you'll know what family your distributor belongs to and can ask board members if they've got an extra breaker plate.  Failing that, there's always eBay.  Then again, if you're not running vacuum advance, there's no reason you couldn't make your own plate.

Doug L.

Glad to hear it's sorted.  Go enjoy the Mini now. 

P.S. You can probably source a points plate here if you start another thread looking for one.

SE7EN

To bad Mallory doesn't make conversions for more applications than they do. I've had one of their conversions in my '63 Chevy SS for years.  Nary a problem.

Replaced pertronix module and all is well.  I've lost the plate for the points, maybe I can make one from the old pertronix module plate.  Thanks everyone for your inputs.

 

SteveD 

Checked that wire for continuity also.  Felt tight , but will check better.

Have blue (sliding--why did they do that?) points distributor.  Thanks

SteveD

Checked that wire for continuity also.  Felt tight , but will check better.  Thanks

SteveD

Doug Lawson is describing the wire that gave me intermittent trouble - on mine, the ground screw on the dizzy body was a little loose. It would run fine, then quit for no aparent reason. Very easy to overlook.

 

"Hang on a minute lads....I've got a great idea."

Rather than clutter this thread with pictures I've got a couple of picture links for you.

The following pictures show the ground wire I'm talking about.  These are NOT Mini distributors but they'll give you an idea of what I'm talking about.

http://www.telkman.co.uk/archive/images/ei3.jpg
Inside the dizzy you'll see a black fuzzy wire running between the breaker plate and dizzy shell.

http://www.britishcarpartsco.com/images/P8050010.JPG
In this larger picture you can see the cloth covered ground wires just above the condenser.

and
http://bhive.tierranet.com/images/300-215.jpg
This is a picture of a ground wire WITHOUT any insulation.  This one appears to be homemade.  You can do without the insulation if you route the wire carefully so it cannot come in contact with the moving arm of the points or the wire lead of the condenser.

Doug L.