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 Posted: Jul 13, 2017 12:45PM
Total posts: 839
Last post: Sep 19, 2017
Member since:Jul 15, 2008
US
Quote:
Originally Posted by malsal
Once you get the top ones replaced and shimmed correctly it will be easy to spot the play in the lower ones.
That is what I wanted to hear. Thanks!

 

Michael, Santa Barbara, CA

. . . the sled, not the flower

      Poser MotorSports

 Posted: Jul 13, 2017 02:06AM
Total posts: 7169
Last post: Sep 15, 2017
Member since:Feb 7, 2006
Once you get the top ones replaced and shimmed correctly it will be easy to spot the play in the lower ones.

If in doubt, flat out . Colin Mc Rae MBE 1968-2007.

 Posted: Jul 12, 2017 09:07PM
 Edited:  Jul 12, 2017 10:18PM
Total posts: 839
Last post: Sep 19, 2017
Member since:Jul 15, 2008
US
Thanks everyone for your advice. I've ordered the parts including extra shims and a separator tool. Going to replace the uppers only with the hubs on the car—thanks for that tip. Once I have the uppers properly shimmed and lapped, how will I know if the lowers need replacing too? I assume that the uppers take the majority of the beating, so perhaps the lowers are OK? The reason I hesitate to replace the lowers at the same time is that it sounds like the hubs may/will need to be removed, and I rather not go there. Thanks again!

 

Michael, Santa Barbara, CA

. . . the sled, not the flower

      Poser MotorSports

 Posted: Jul 12, 2017 05:37PM
Total posts: 63
Last post: Jul 12, 2017
Member since:Sep 1, 2014
so what brand and who carries non china ball joints?

 Posted: Jul 12, 2017 04:26PM
Total posts: 525
Last post: Aug 28, 2017
Member since:May 18, 2002
US
An alternative is to bin the old style and bolt a set of either of these on the car.
Minisport Alloy Hubs
KAD Alloy hubs

I have a set of the KAD hubs. I spent a bunch of time getting  the shimmed original style ball joints perfect and they lasted 1000 or so miles because the quality of the heat treatment was crap. Screw a set of sealed ball joints on the KAD or Mini Sport hubs and you're done.
Not period correct but way easier for better longevity.

 

 

 Posted: Jul 12, 2017 12:09PM
Total posts: 7251
Last post: Sep 19, 2017
Member since:Aug 14, 2002
CA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank
To me, that's a reshim job. It's the top which means most of the force is on the little cupped washer that sits in the hub itself. Dollars to doughnuts that nut isn't / wasn't torqued properly and likely the little cupped washer wasn't seated when it was done.
.....

*if during the cleanout process you notice a step or pronounced groove in any of the parts, then yea, you may as well replace them.
I looked at the video again. There appears to be more than 1/8" play in the ball joint itself but certainly not 1/8" worth of shims between the dome nut and the lock plate.

.

"Hang on a minute lads....I've got a great idea."

 Posted: Jul 12, 2017 10:08AM
Total posts: 7169
Last post: Sep 15, 2017
Member since:Feb 7, 2006
If you are just doing the upper ball joints they can be done on the car, if you are doing the lowers as well i find it best to remove the hubs and do them on the bench.

X 2 what Spank said check the torque of them before you take them apart and buy extra shims so you have enough on hand when re shimming them.

If in doubt, flat out . Colin Mc Rae MBE 1968-2007.

 Posted: Jul 12, 2017 07:17AM
Total posts: 5853
Last post: Sep 19, 2017
Member since:Mar 9, 1999
To me, that's a reshim job. It's the top which means most of the force is on the little cupped washer that sits in the hub itself. Dollars to doughnuts that nut isn't / wasn't torqued properly and likely the little cupped washer wasn't seated when it was done.

I recall about 10-15 years ago, I would lap in every balljoint, spending hours trying to get it just right. The result: Nearly the same as when I didn't lap them: Removing a shim (granted, a thinner one on the ones I lapped) after a few thousand miles.

The balljoints have gotten crappier since then. I can't remember when I've seen a new one in recent times with anywhere near the heat treatment witness bluing of the ones from just 5 years ago.

I put them in tighter, now, and don't lap them. I treat them like an old-skool head gasket or wheelbearing job: retorque after a prescribed time.

If you've got $ and time to throw at it, go ahead and get new ones.

The smart use of time and $ is to open it up, clean it out*, remove a shim, re-torque using the proper deep socket. and repeat until there is no play.

You can look at it this way: The last few thousand miles of driving have been lapping it in for you.



*if during the cleanout process you notice a step or pronounced groove in any of the parts, then yea, you may as well replace them.

 Posted: Jul 12, 2017 06:43AM
Total posts: 7251
Last post: Sep 19, 2017
Member since:Aug 14, 2002
CA
Looking at Rosebud's video, the play in the upper ball joint is way beyond re-shimming or the result of not being lapped. To my mind it is in "don't drive it" territory.

Michael:

Ball joints can be replaced without disassembling the hub. Do them one at a time.

Lapping the "ball" of the joint is what they/we are referring to. It makes the ball more spherical, smooth and fitting the inside of the dome properly. Normal use will also do this, but it will leave the joint loose and needing adjustment. But not as loose as your video shows.

Getting the shimming right is also important. Save the old shims in case you need them, but use the new shims first, and save what you don't use.

You may find that a ball joint is too loose even with no shims installed. (I had 1 of 4 from the same source with this problem.) To remedy, you need to lap down the bottom of the dome nut until you get the right fit. If you don't have a machine shop, you can use emery cloth or paper on a very flat surface - a piece of plate glass is ideal - and rib the nut on it until you sand it down to spec. Don't try filing or grinding - you will end up with the surface not perpendicular to the axis of the threaded part and it won't torque properly.

.

"Hang on a minute lads....I've got a great idea."

 Posted: Jul 12, 2017 05:00AM
Total posts: 839
Last post: Sep 19, 2017
Member since:Jul 15, 2008
US
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkerr
watch the videos on how to lap new mini balljoints before assembly
Rodger that. If new ball joints are in my future, that was going to be my next question. Thanks!

 

Michael, Santa Barbara, CA

. . . the sled, not the flower

      Poser MotorSports

 Posted: Jul 12, 2017 02:50AM
Total posts: 613
Last post: Sep 20, 2017
Member since:Sep 24, 2011
watch the videos on how to lap new mini balljoints before assembly

 Posted: Jul 11, 2017 10:00PM
Total posts: 839
Last post: Sep 19, 2017
Member since:Jul 15, 2008
US
Before I begin the job of replacing my ball joints, I thought I'd post a video showing just how much play I have. Seems excessive to me and I get a bit of a clunk when I step on the gas in 1st & 2nd gear if the slack in the drivetrain hasn't been taken up. So, what do you all think? Am I ready for new ball joints?  [video]

 

Michael, Santa Barbara, CA

. . . the sled, not the flower

      Poser MotorSports

 Posted: Jun 27, 2017 02:44AM
Total posts: 8492
Last post: Sep 13, 2017
Member since:Jun 5, 2000
US
The wear described sounds VERY excessive and not likely to be possible in 4k miles if the ball joints were properly lapped and shimmed last time and if they have been lubed.

While it is possible to replace the ball joints on the car I would not suggest trying it.  When you tighten the ball joints it requires (from memory) 80 ft-lb.  While that's possible... the hub assembly is going to want to twist and bobble around while you apply the torque.  Keep in mind you won't be applying the torque just once, you will be doing it over and over again as you check the fit of the shims.

Google for threads on lapping ball joints.  Follow the steps described to make sure the ball joint parts are properly seated to each other PRIOR to determining the shim count.

As Ian said, you don't need the special tool.  However, something that will prove handy is making something to bolt the hub to so you can clamp it in your bench vise.  The hub casting is a unique shape that is hard to hold directly in a vise.  As I mentioned above about not doing this on the car, the hub may flop around while torquing the ball joint dome nuts if you don't have a way to keep it from slipping in the vise.

Doug L.
 Posted: Jun 26, 2017 10:47PM
Total posts: 1369
Last post: Sep 9, 2017
Member since:Oct 18, 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosebud

While Rosebud was on the dyno at MM’s Open House last Saturday (more on that later), the dyno technician said that Rosebud’s balljoints needed replacement. He was able to move the swivel hub up & down about ¼” on both sides of the car. So, before I begin, I have a couple of questions.

Methinks there's something fishy in the State of Denmark..... I wouldn't think it possible that the hub could move this much while the balljoints remain connected..Are the top and bottom nuts that secure the ball joint pin to the suspension arms still in place??  Are the domed nuts that hold the joint to the uprights still in place????  I would think that with that much movement the domed nuts would be almost completely detached from the uprights ..

1) The balljoints were new less then 4k gentle miles ago. Seems a little premature for that much wear. Yes?

I don't believe that much wear is possible.....

2) Haynes says the swivel hubs need to be removed in order to replace the balljoints. Is this correct? Looks to me like I can replace the balljoints w/o removing the hubs. Wishful thinking?

Are we talking about the same things??? Remove the ball joint and the hub is no longer attached to the car ..well held on only be the inner joint boot strap.... and the steering arm..

3) If the hubs need to be removed, is that very difficult and are there any tips for separating the driveshafts from the hubs? I assume only the outboard (hub) side of the driveshafts need be removed and the diff side can stay in place. Correct?

Once you remove the hub nut the upright will just slide off the CV splines.... On the other hand ...IMHO its probably easier to undo the inner boot strap and slide the hub out with the drive shafts attached (no need to undo hub nut...  Although...its been a while... just maybe the large part of the inner CV (if that's what you have) mightn't fit through the hole in the subframe????  

4) Do I really need to make one of these (see pic) in order to remove the driveshaft retaining nut? Seems like having an assistant step on the brake would prevent the hub from turning better than this gizmo. 

No (no need for the gizm ... an assistant on the brake pedal is fine .. or even a large pry bar threaded through wheel studs with one end propped on the ground .... 

6) Anything else have to come off? Tie rods, steering arms?

Detach steering at the arm ball joint.., tie rod is attached to lower arm so stays in place..

Any help would be appreciated.

I'd be putting the car on stands and having the able assistant lift the hubs to check exactly what is moving before I started on anything...

Cheers, Ian

 

 Posted: Jun 26, 2017 09:25PM
Total posts: 1312
Last post: Sep 19, 2017
Member since:Oct 8, 2013
You can do them on the car easily enough, one at a time, For the lower swivel remove the caliper and steering rod end and turn the hub 180deg and put the upper pin in the lower hole to support the hub while you work.
No they shouldn't have worn out that quick unless they were those cheap chinese things, or they wern't shimmed correctly in the first instance?

Mini's are like buses they come along in a bunch

 Posted: Jun 26, 2017 09:14PM
Total posts: 839
Last post: Sep 19, 2017
Member since:Jul 15, 2008
US

While Rosebud was on the dyno at MM’s Open House last Saturday (more on that later), the dyno technician said that Rosebud’s balljoints needed replacement. He was able to move the swivel hub up & down about ¼” on both sides of the car. So, before I begin, I have a couple of questions.

 

1) The balljoints were new less then 4k gentle miles ago. Seems a little premature for that much wear. Yes?

 

2) Haynes says the swivel hubs need to be removed in order to replace the balljoints. Is this correct? Looks to me like I can replace the balljoints w/o removing the hubs. Wishful thinking?

 

3) If the hubs need to be removed, is that very difficult and are there any tips for separating the driveshafts from the hubs? I assume only the outboard (hub) side of the driveshafts need be removed and the diff side can stay in place. Correct?

 

4) Do I really need to make one of these (see pic) in order to remove the driveshaft retaining nut? Seems like having an assistant step on the brake would prevent the hub from turning better than this gizmo. 

 

6) Anything else have to come off? Tie rods, steering arms?

Any help would be appreciated.

 

 

Michael, Santa Barbara, CA

. . . the sled, not the flower

      Poser MotorSports